Vicipaedia:Taberna

Haec est taberna Vicipaediae ubi potes si dubia habes, explanationes quaerere, nuntia ad nos mittere et cetera.
Ut sententias antiquiores legas vide tabernae acta priora.
Quaestio nova
Compendium:
VP:T
Hic colloqui possumus.

MMXXIIRecensere

 
Spectaculum pyrotechnicum Suebicum

Annum faustum, felicem, fortunatumque vobis omnibus precor! Legamus, scribamus, gaudeamus! Lesgles (disputatio) 15:44, 1 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Fausta omnia tibi ceterisque Vicipaedianis. Proposito tuo subscribo.--Marcus Terentius Bibliophilus (disputatio) 15:53, 1 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Vicipaedia:Pellicula mensisRecensere

Salvete omnes! Habemus Vicipaedia:Pellicula mensis (gratias @UV: et elegi pelliculas per 2022. Estne bene hoc uti in pagina prima? --JimKillock (disputatio) 17:23, 3 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Cur non? Anno novo quoddam novum faciamus. — Paginae primae columna prima nunc brevissima est, ibi pellicula inseri potest. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 19:29, 3 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Bene, quis ergo possit paginam primam emendare? @UV: fortasse? --JimKillock (disputatio) 22:52, 5 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Nemine contradicente pelliculas mensium in paginam primam inserui. --UV (disputatio) 21:04, 6 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Gratias tibi @UV:! --JimKillock (disputatio) 16:55, 9 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Rogationem de annorumRecensere

Habemus rogationem de hoc commons:TimedText:Uruk,_erste_Metropole_der_Weltgeschichte_(CC_BY_4.0).webm.la.srt: Ibi quattuor milia [annos / annorum?] ante Christum natum prima urbs post hominum memoriam condita est. Utitur annos aut annorum? --JimKillock (disputatio) 16:57, 9 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Post milia annorum melius. Marcus Terentius Bibliophilus (disputatio) 16:05, 10 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

The ling formulaRecensere

Should languages named by the ling formula be adverbs or nouns? We notice that in "Lingua Scotica (Gadelica)," editor 2804:1054:3014:fde0:f045:7592:d7f5:8331 has changed {{ling|Scotice|Anglice}} to {{ling|Scotica|Anglica}} overnight. We notice also that the formula is given as {{Ling|Lingua Italiana{{!}}Italiane}} in "Runcus Genuensium." What's the most appropriate way of coding this kind of information? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:09, 11 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Paginas de linguis Scotiae nunc semi-protexi. Editor anonymus, linguae Latinae expers, nomina linguarum in paginis de Scotia inutiliter mutat.
Scribimus e.g. de nexu externo monolingui {{Ling|Anglice}}; de nexu bilingui {{Ling|Anglice|Francogallice}}, etc.
UVbot interdum e.g. {{Ling|Anglice}} in {{Ling|Lingua Anglica{{!}}Anglice}} mutat: haec mutatio in facie paginae non videtur. Nobis neque expansionem ab UVbot factam imitare, neque revertere, necesse est. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 21:06, 11 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

De pagina primaRecensere

When you visit our Vicipaedia:Pagina prima from today on (and you are logged in), you may notice that Vicipaedia now will greet you using your username ;-)

(You might beforehand need to reload the page, shift-reload the page and/or clear your browser cache to see the effect.)

This greeting is a (hopefully pleasant) side-effect of me today adapting the top of our Vicipaedia:Pagina prima to make sure everything will still work in the future: Possibly, the MediaWiki software developers will, within a few weeks or months, add a “Sticky Header” near the top of the page may put some useful controls onto the same line as the article title. For this to work smoothly in the future, I have today removed our custom main page heading and re-enabled the standard one.

Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 21:35, 11 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Great, but the gadget doesn't know the vocative case. Of course, vocative is not needed for all nicknames, but for those that are needed, is it possible to specify a form somewhere? To change the ending -us to -e and -ius to -i. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 03:15, 12 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Good idea, I have tried to include a manual workaround for the vocative case (see the source code of MediaWiki:Mainpage-title-loggedin/vocative) – does it work now? If anyone else prefers a greeting in the vocative case on our pagina prima as well, do tell me and I will add your username to MediaWiki:Mainpage-title-loggedin/vocative. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 20:18, 12 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Wow! Now it really makes an impression. — It seems to me, also Bis-Taurinus (one of those who often edits — and always corrects errors). And IacobusAmor — what about the space, it's unclear, maybe he will say. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 22:35, 12 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Yes, thank you, I have added the two. If anyone prefers it some other way, please tell me! --UV (disputatio) 22:42, 12 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

De UVbotRecensere

Hodie in capsa editoria rei "Percy Liza," 190.237.93.100, editor ignotus, nobis dicit UVbot "is misbehaving or if there is just the slightest suspicion that the bot might be malfunctioning, please block it." Re vera? UVbot indecore se gerit? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:20, 22 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

UVbot «non annexa» formulam posuit et recte omnia fecit, nam non annexa est. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 14:11, 22 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Well, it could indeed happen that (a) I make a mistake while operating UVbot (nobody is perfect) or (b) there is a technical problem that causes UVbot to malfunction. If such a situation occurs, I invite everyone to raise the issue here in the Taberna or on my user talk page; and if the bot is still running and doing more harm, I invite every admin to block UVbot at sight. In the case at hand, I believe that UVbot did neither misbehave nor malfunction. Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 20:06, 22 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Indeed. Noster 190.237.93.100, editor ignotus, appears to be under the impression that the "Pagina non annexa" formula shouldn't be applied to pages lacking an incoming link, or at least to "Percy Liza." IacobusAmor (disputatio) 20:17, 22 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
The last of those :) To put it in context, 190.237.93.100 has been spreading this footballer across many Wikipedias. The Latin page was just about acceptable as a start so we didn't delete it. 190.237.93.100 prefers the page not to have any templates on it, and has learned that bots can conveniently be accused of malfunctioning. It's up to us how we deal with such messages, taking due account of their origin.
As for the page, the text is far too short to be useful. If anyone wants to improve it and add an incoming link somewhere, great: if not, I suspect it will eventually be deleted. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:20, 23 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Formulae desiderataeRecensere

Fortasse noster Usor:Klein Muçi or some other kind programmer would like to make the formulas printing nakedly in red under "De nominibus hodiernis" here work. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:08, 23 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

@IacobusAmor, LaWiki was completely lacking technical foreign language support. I found myself in a rabbit hole where each module required 10 other modules to be imported so it worked. After 87 imports of modules and templates (my hands literally hurt :P ), the situation should be better. Unfortunately that is not the complete list of templates (the complete list requires +200 other templates to cover almost all the languages and scripts of the world) and some of the already imported templates may require further fine-tuning to be translated in Latin (that's actually easy to do) but I did what was needed to solve the current, immediate, problem I believe. - Klein Muçi (disputatio) 14:14, 23 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Macte! Multas gratias tibi ago! Such labor! Who knew? Bravo! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:38, 23 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
But the name of the language must be Latin, "Graece" and not "Greek" etc.; "romanized" — "litteris Latinis"? "Listen" — "audias" etc. Or is it easier to rewrite a paragraph without formulas. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 14:31, 23 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I do. I don't know what benefit the templates offer. But all praise to Klein Muçi for doing the work. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:08, 23 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
@Demetrius Talpa, please, take a look at Module:Lang/data. You'll see a long list in red. The right part (the one in quotation marks, after the equals mark) is the part that needs to be translated for 90% of those cases you're referring to. Can you do that for me? I'll take care for the remaining ones in the end or fix any errors that might arise.
@Andrew Dalby, to put it very simply, some computers are dumb when you offer them different languages or different scripts and they don't know how to render them and they may end up rendering question marks or other similar symbols instead. The work I did gives them metadata (data/information about the data they're reading) so they know what they're reading and therefore how to render them. That + some templates so they (computers) know how to render the IPA symbols. The problem is that, as I said, there are many languages and scripts in the world and each have their own templates so, of course, there are a lot lacking currently. I only imported the basic ones needed for the system to work and the ones that were needed in that specific article.
How much IPA is needed here... That does require a discussion on its own. My vague idea is that given that IPA is universal per se, can be utilized everywhere but I'm not an expert on linguistics, let alone phonology. If you say that it is not needed, we can remove some templates related to IPA while keeping the other ones that help computers render text better. Even though I'd propose to wait a bit before acting, maybe that proves useful.
Thanks to everyone for the good words! :)) - Klein Muçi (disputatio) 15:41, 23 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation, Klein Muçi. I agree with you about IPA: it is international and acceptable, it is sometimes useful, but (since our focus is written Latin) IPA pronunciations of foreign names may not be truly useful in every case. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 15:55, 23 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
As for editing the list of languages — I don't know, I'm not sure that these templates will be used; maybe one day.
And about the display of rare alphabets — now almost everything is displayed almost everywhere (thank you, Unicode), and when squares or question marks are visible, then the problem is in the user's device, and not in the template; I recently had a case with the Avestan alphabet — on one machine you can see even without a template, and on the other, and through the [undefined] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: no text (help) template, it's still squares. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 16:19, 23 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
@Demetrius Talpa, the template you mentioned didn't exist in here. Just imported it. (You'll see that now it generates an error because it has no text defined, just the template itself.) Can you tell me more about the case you were talking about in there? Not an expert on this subject as I said (I've only dealt with this phenomenon briefly in the past) but maybe I'm able to help. And well done on the string translations! :) - Klein Muçi (disputatio) 23:20, 23 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
I inserted those adverbia that I could; we don’t have articles about the rest and I don’t want to invent on the go. - About Avestan - I was talking about Russian Wikipedia, and the case is the same in in English. Android and Linux shows Avestan even without a template, Windows even with template don't shows. These templates made sense around 2005, now it seems to me that they can (or should) also be eliminated in large wikipedias, they stand by inertia. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 12:13, 24 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
I had the same impression as Demetrius when I looked at the use of these templates on en:wiki a while back and the long discussions about them over there. They surely seemed a good idea when invented but their real value may be small, and the more templates you see in the edit screen, the less you want to edit it. I quote from far above: "is it easier to rewrite a paragraph without formulas?" Yes, it could be. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 16:10, 24 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Maybe user @Trappist the monk can explain us more on the whole subject as the creator of Module:Lang. - Klein Muçi (disputatio) 22:33, 24 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
For the record: while I was the writer of Module:Lang, the wikitext templates existed long before I consolidated everything into Module:lang.
I get the impression that editors here don't think that the language templates are important and that while they might have been useful 15 years ago, they are no longer useful. Were that the case, HTML5 (MediaWiki publishes articles in HTML5 markup) would have dropped the lang= attribute. The authors of the html5 standard have not done so; see the standard. Were the {{lang}} template not useful, editors at en.wiki would have long ago abandoned them. They have not done so; Module:lang is in use on more than 1.2 million en.wiki pages. Proper html language markup is important and the {{lang}} templates are intended to make it as easy as possible for wikipedia editors to write text in languages different from the local wikipedia's language.
Here is, I think, a simple example – la.wiki doesn't have {{lang-ar}} so I've fudged this example with a direct call into Module:lang. I grabbed this Arabic text from Lingua Arabica.
  • Lingua Arabica: اللغة العربية الفصحى ← plain text mockup rendered by your browser using the default font
  • Lingua Arabica: اللغة العربية الفصحى ← the same text with your browser choosing a font more appropriate to Arab-script text; the properly formatted html looks like this:
    [[Lingua Arabica]]: <span lang="ar" dir="rtl">اللغة العربية الفصحى</span>
Much easier to use the template. If you are reading this page using a screen reader, the screen reader is more likely to correctly pronounce the Arabic words when they are wrapped in the proper html markup.
Trappist the monk (disputatio) 00:32, 25 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Yes, it slightly enlarges the Arabic font (but it can be enlarged in other ways). - It never occurred to me to look for a program that reads Latin aloud from the screen; maybe it exists. — Engage in templates if you like; I did what was asked of me for this. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 01:18, 25 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
My overall opinion on that is that it doesn't do any harm to provide that kind of support even if considered a small thing. The only concern is that it may overburden editors but new editors mostly work with VE (Visual Editor) and in there templates aren't really a concern. For the editors who would like to take the extra step and provide that technical support in the articles they're editing, the possibility will be there. - Klein Muçi (disputatio) 23:57, 25 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
"Any harm" exists, while Georgian: ..., not Georgiane, Abkhazian: ..., not Abasgice: ..., etc. Please, if they're already here, don't be harmful. Or delete. Suddenly someone will uses them? (I then immediately redid Pontus Euxinus without them, you can not think about it) Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 15:01, 26 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

I don't use visual editor. If it does reduce the clutter effect of templates in the edit screen, that's surely a Very Good Thing.

One of the points often discussed on en:wiki is, what categories of "foreign" text are appropriate for templating? This needs to be clear, and it strongly affects the value of a voiceover. Simple examples:

  • Foreign names for the page title, as part of a list of foreign names (which may be in the first paragraph or in an "etymology" or "toponymy" subsection). This is the case in the example we began with, Pontus Euxinus. I guess these need to be correctly voiced in the foreign language -- though the hearer will have difficulty understanding them, as spoken one by one, unless they are in a language the hearer already knows and spoken in an accent with which the hearer is familiar.
  • Foreign name adopted as our page title because there is no Latin name. I guess this needs to be pronounced with Latin phonemes, as a reasonable Latinist, not knowing the foreign language, would make an attempt at pronouncing it. Because if, every time it occurs in the text, the speaker switches to pure foreign pronunciation, that bit of the sentence will be lost to understanding.

The distinction might relate more-or-less to whether we would use italics or not in written text. Those who have listened in a vehicle to a voiced GPS that is programmed to speak language A but give placenames and road numbers in language B will agree that the question needs thought! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:06, 26 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation is going to be a problem with certain spellings produced by speakers of Latin after late antiquity. For example, we have Pechinum—to Cicero, something perhaps close to /peχinum/—because Ricci and his Italian friends would have pronounced Pecinum more like /pet͡ʃinum/. For Pechinum, many modern Italians would actually say /pekinuma/ or in careful speech even /pekinum:a/ (as did Morgan), because final /m/ is awkward in their native phonology, but that's a different story. And then of course we have /χilia/ for the country spelled as Chilia, but perhaps better (that is, classically) spelled as Tsilia or even Silia. At least we have Sicagum (not Chicagum!) for 'Chicago', though attestations of pertinent adjectives include Chicaginiensis—which in turn, more thoroughly applying the spelling conventions of "church Latin," should have been Chicaghiniensis (with another aitch) IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:30, 26 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
You're right. Long ago we found consensus for a style of written Latin. How can we select a pronunciation style? Should we? Is it proper for us to choose one? I don't know.
Recte dicis. Stylum scripturae consensu iam diu selegimus; modum pronuntiatus quomodo eligere possumus? An nobis oportet? An re vera licet? Haud scio! Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 13:55, 26 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

One more note about the templates: plain {{lang}} is slightly different from {{lang-ar}}, {{lang-fr}}, etc. I've been using the former, which I think works fine as is for all ISO codes (correct me if I'm wrong). Formula:Lang-ar removes the extra step of having to add "Arabice", but I don't think that's worth the extra effort of creating all the separate templates. For example:

{{lang|grc|μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος}} ⟶ μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος
{{lang|zh|施氏食獅史}} ⟶ 施氏食獅史

Lesgles (disputatio) 22:36, 27 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

@Lesgles, the ideal approach, if you ask me personally, would be that everyone who decides to use the lang templates cared to use the correct one and, if one didn't exist, the said user imported it. Eventually the majority would have been imported and there would come a user that would import the remaining part, consolidating the system and fine tune its details. This would be the best way to share work in a non-tiring, organic manner. But that's just my opinion. - Klein Muçi (disputatio) 01:04, 28 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
What to do with those that are already imported and do not work correctly (displaying titles in another language with, of course, broken links)? The user is not obliged to guess that the tool offered to him is (yet) harmful (Greek pronunciation: [[Abecedarium Phoneticum Internationale|[...]]]}, IPA: [[Abecedarium Phoneticum Internationale|[...]]], Avestan: ..., Neograece: ..., Ukrainian: ..., Turkish: ..., Russian: ..., Romanian: ..., Mingrelian: ..., Georgian: ..., Crimean Tatar: ..., Bulgarian: ..., Armenian: ..., Adyghe: ..., Formula:Lang-zh, Formula:Lang-hbs, Abkhazian: ...). Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 01:24, 28 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
@Demetrius Talpa, Rome wasn't built in a day. Progression takes time. What we currently have is more or less what I did in a frenzied hurry in less than 30 minutes some days ago. Assuming we're not going to delete everything really soon, I (and hopefully other editors) will continue to help fixing the problems, which I stopped after this discussion started happening about them. Given how template works, you need only to fix one and you'll immediately solve the problems in wherever that template is used, whatever those problems may be. - Klein Muçi (disputatio) 01:35, 28 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
To put it shortly, if we greenlight the use, I'll try to help fixing the problems. I just stopped for the discussion to conclude first because I didn't want to dedicate more time to something that might be deleted soon.
(Thanks for reporting the problematic cases!) - Klein Muçi (disputatio) 01:38, 28 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
We need to fix these 17 without waiting for the thousand years that Rome was built (or we need to prevent the possibility of their accidental use before the construction of Rome). Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 01:46, 28 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
Yes, of course. I'll get to it in a few hours. I would have finished since that day to be honest but, as I said twice now, I stopped to wait and see the discussion's conclusion before so I'd be a bit more sure I wasn't working for nothing. - Klein Muçi (disputatio) 01:53, 28 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Alexander CarbonariusRecensere

(quaestio nova fortuite in tabularium inserta est, huc moveo, — Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 13:15, 26 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC))
Da ich leider nicht weiß, wo ich sonst fragen kann, versuche ich es hier mal wieder. Von Gregor von Nyssa habe ich einen Text in Alt-Griechisch gefunden. Mit Hilfe des Internets konnte ich keine Übersetzung finden. Vielleicht hier?

Der Text ist von hier: http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_0330-0395__Gregorius_Nyssenus__De_vita_Gregorii_Thaumaturgi__MGR.pdf.html Es geht mir ausschließlich um drei Zeilen:

Zeilen: [00360] Καὶ τίς οὗτος, φησὶν, ὁ Ἀλέξανδρος, οὗ τὴν µνήµην πεποίησθε;

[00361] Εἶτά τινος τῶν συµπαρόντων ἐν γέλωτι παραγαγόντος εἰς µέσον τὸν µνηµονευθέντα, ῥακίοις πιναροῖς ἠµφιεσµένον, οὐδὲ ὅλῳ τῷ σώµατι, καὶ ἅµα δεικνύντα τῷ φαινοµένῳ τὴν ἐργασίαν χερσί τε καὶ προσώπῳ, καὶ τῷ λοιπῷ σώµατι κατεῤῥυπωµένον τῇ ἐργασίᾳ τῶν ἀνθράκων, τοῖς µὲν λοιποῖς γέλωτος ἦν ὑπόθεσις, ἐν µέ σοις τοιοῦτος ἑστὼς ὁ Ἀλέξανδρος, τῷ δὲ διορατικῷ ἐκείνῳ ὀφθαλµῷ πολλὴν παρεῖχεν ἔκπληξιν τὸ γινόµενόν τε καὶ ὁρώµενον·

[00378] Πάντων δὲ πρὸς τὸν νέον ἱερέα ἀποβλεπόντων, προτραπείς τινα πρὸς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν λόγον ποιήσασθαι, ἔδειξεν εὐθὺς ἐν προοιµίοις τῆς ἀρχῆς ὁ Ἀλέξανδρος ἄψευστον ἐπ' αὐτῷ τοῦ µεγάλου Γρηγορίου τὴν κρίσιν

Da wird was über Alexander, dem Köhler/Alexander Carbonarius (Heiliger und Bischof) erzählt? Ich weiß, hier geht es um Latein, aber ich habe die Hoffnung, dass hier auch viele Alt-Griechisch können. Kennt jemand evtl. einen Link zu einer deutschen Übersetzung, oder kann auf die Schnelle(!) grob(!) sagen, worum es in den drei Zeilen geht? Danke

Qwertzu111111 (disputatio) 16:10, 24 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

  • (This page is already archived, you probably made a mistake, it is better to move the question to the current tabernа.) — Sorry, I am not fit to make a translation into German or English, but it tells how St. Gregory Thaumaturgus chose Alexander as bishop, a simple coal-burner, in tatters and completely black from coal (colorfully described), and all the people gathered in the church looked at him with bewilderment, but Alexander immediately turned to them with such a speech that everyone understood that Gregory was wonderfully perspicacious. Demetrius Talpa (disputatio) 22:11, 24 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)
thanks for your quick and kind response. Yes, I made a mistake. sorry for that. It sounds like the content is that: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01295c.htm? Qwertzu111111 (disputatio) 22:23, 24 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

Categoria:Genera animaliumRecensere

I thought we'd finished applying this category (and similar categories in the set) to all appropriate articles, but several spiders not so marked just turned up. Do other such articles exist? Would it be possible for someone to construct a program that would list any articles that have, say, the word Animalia in a taxobox but not the category "..... animalium" (where "....." can be species or genera or tribus and so forth)? ¶ And then of course with plants (having Plantae in a taxobox). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 15:31, 26 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)

You're right: much was done, but it was not a job that could be completed 100% manually.
We still have some survivals of a very ancient kind of taxobox, and not all the articles concerned have taxoboxes at all -- they don't have anything predictable in common, not even that -- but nearly all of them do, and your solution, if it can be applied, would pick up all of those. The aim would be to list all the articles (a) with Animalia or Plantae in a taxobox (b) currently lacking any category that is a subcategory of Categoria:Taxa gradu digesta. Yes, it seems a good idea to me. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 09:51, 27 Ianuarii 2022 (UTC)